Rat Hour = New Day in accordance to the Lunar Calendar

[Scorpiez]

Dear Fellow Threaders,
                               I would like to hear your opinions on this.

                               Rat Hour (子) reigns from 2300hrs - 0100hrs, which traditionally is the start of a New day according to ancient Bazi mechanism. From the numerous Bazi discussions and Professional Consultants I questioned, there seems to be a common convergence that the distinction of 晚子时 (Late Rat) and 早子时 (Early Rat) are but perverse attempts at distorting ancient regulations, in order to acclimatise the practise in line with the current time order where a new day strikes at 0000hrs and more so to simplify concepts for introduction of Chinese Metaphysics to the West. Apparently, the concept of the consideration of Qi has been largely neglected. The principle of Rat Hour being the mark off for the start of a new day intends that the Qi (position of the sun) has shifted to a new day and ended for the previous.

                               In any case, for individuals born within the Late Rat Hour (晚子时) - 23:00 to 0000hrs - your day pillar should be plotted in accordance to following day's.

[Manty]

Hi Scorpiomatrix:

You pose an interesting query.

Rat Hour (子) reigns from 2300hrs - 0100hrs, which traditionally is the start of a New day according to ancient Bazi mechanism.

Right.  Not only for Bazi.  In the same way that in the West and in all of Modernity and Postmodernity, the day starts at 00:00 hours, so in Ancient China and great part of Asia, the Day starts at what the Wests calls 11:00 pm or 23:00 hours. The Western way of reckoning time is a convention just as the Chinese way of reckoning time.  So, you should decide which convention to follow.  When I am doing Bazi, I follow the ancient Chinese convention.  When I go to work, I follow the current Western standard.

From the numerous Bazi discussions and Professional Consultants I questioned, there seems to be a common convergence that the distinction of 晚子时 (Late Rat) and 早子时 (Early Rat)... in order to acclimatise the practise in line with the current time order where a new day strikes at 0000hrs...

You are right again.  The modern notions of Late Rat and Early Rat is a view of the first double.hour of the Chinese day from the Western standard of reckoning time.

In any case, for individuals born within the Late Rat Hour (晚子时) - 23:00 to 0000hrs - your day pillar should be plotted in accordance to following day's.

This is easy.  It does not matter if your birthhour is Early Rat or Late Rat.  The key word is Rat.  So if you were born between 11:00 pm and 01:00 am, then you will chose the new day's date.  Think of 11:00 pm as 12:00 midnight and you will see it clearly. 

Happy bazi-ing (pronounced buzzing)

Manty

[meek]

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[Manty]

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[meek]

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[Cyril]

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[Scorpiez]

Dear meek,
               No one is saying anything about breaking up the Rat Hour at 0000hrs! This is fundamentally a wrong practice of numerous Bazi practitioners that I'm intending to highlight here, in fact.

              So, that's not what I'm purporting anyway but like what you say, that the Qi of a Rat Hour should be allowed to flow smoothly and that is within the span of 23:00hrs (11pm) of a current day to 01:00 (1am) of the following day. The distortion of the Rat hour according to 'New Age' concepts (which Yuan Hai Zi Ping must be frowning in the other world) into 晚子時 (Late Rat) and 早子時 (Early rat) should certainly be WRONG, as it certainly does not gel with the Bazi what our Chinese ancestors left for us.

              Want to adopt and learn Chinese Metaphysics? Then adopt conventional Chinese practise. Although I comprehend that it could be difficult for Westerners to envisage a new day starting at 23:00hrs (11pm) but hey, that's the deal in Chinese culture. We certainly cannot ignore the conventions of Bazi which has survived since its inception from the Xia Dynasty 夏朝 (21 B.C - 16 B.C) but then again, the metaphysics industry is a competitive business so each to his/her own. At the end of the day whether to gel or not lies in the hands of practitioners but without adhererance to ancestral conventions, the magic of Bazi can never be fully illuminated.

[Scorpiez]

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Hi manty,

Talking about months - on the same basis of changing the day pillar at 0000 hrs, one would also start the new year pillar at 1st January!

Umm meek,
                I think what you mentioned is totally irrelevance and much more unnecessary. The issue is NOT about the day but the TIME! It is not that the day pillar is intentionally changed but IT MUST be in order for the Rat hour of 2 hours to fall in place.

                The Chinese New Year falls on the first day of Spring according to the Lunar Calendar, which is all about seasonal changes but for the time pillar, we are talking about Astrology a.k.a the Qi, which is the ratio/balance of the 5 elements (Wu Xing) that is present at a time of which a person is born. Do not mind me, but are you drilled on Chinese culture and astrology? - No Offence, honestly. 

[meek]

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[Scorpiez]

Hi meek,
           Oh you are modest! I'm a Chinese but have not been to half of those cities you have mentioned.

           Please continue your persual in Bazi (if you are) as I'm sure it has much more to offer! 

Sincerely,
S. Matrix

[devadog]

Dear meek,
               No one is saying anything about breaking up the Rat Hour at 0000hrs! This is fundamentally a wrong practice of numerous Bazi practitioners that I'm intending to highlight here, in fact.

              So, that's not what I'm purporting anyway but like what you say, that the Qi of a Rat Hour should be allowed to flow smoothly and that is within the span of 23:00hrs (11pm) of a current day to 01:00 (1am) of the following day. The distortion of the Rat hour according to 'New Age' concepts (which Yuan Hai Zi Ping must be frowning in the other world) into 晚子時 (Late Rat) and 早子時 (Early rat) should certainly be WRONG, as it certainly does not gel with the Bazi what our Chinese ancestors left for us.

              Want to adopt and learn Chinese Metaphysics? Then adopt conventional Chinese practise. Although I comprehend that it could be difficult for Westerners to envisage a new day starting at 23:00hrs (11pm) but hey, that's the deal in Chinese culture. We certainly cannot ignore the conventions of Bazi which has survived since its inception from the Xia Dynasty 夏朝 (21 B.C - 16 B.C) but then again, the metaphysics industry is a competitive business so each to his/her own. At the end of the day whether to gel or not lies in the hands of practitioners but without adhererance to ancestral conventions, the magic of Bazi can never be fully illuminated.

It seems that the convention of when a "new day" starts is a cultural artifice. Westerners like midnight. But if we are going to use Chinese metaphysics, we must work within its assumptions.

[moonchin]

Dear meek,
               No one is saying anything about breaking up the Rat Hour at 0000hrs! This is fundamentally a wrong practice of numerous Bazi practitioners that I'm intending to highlight here, in fact.

              So, that's not what I'm purporting anyway but like what you say, that the Qi of a Rat Hour should be allowed to flow smoothly and that is within the span of 23:00hrs (11pm) of a current day to 01:00 (1am) of the following day. The distortion of the Rat hour according to 'New Age' concepts (which Yuan Hai Zi Ping must be frowning in the other world) into 晚子時 (Late Rat) and 早子時 (Early rat) should certainly be WRONG, as it certainly does not gel with the Bazi what our Chinese ancestors left for us.

              Want to adopt and learn Chinese Metaphysics? Then adopt conventional Chinese practise. Although I comprehend that it could be difficult for Westerners to envisage a new day starting at 23:00hrs (11pm) but hey, that's the deal in Chinese culture. We certainly cannot ignore the conventions of Bazi which has survived since its inception from the Xia Dynasty 夏朝 (21 B.C - 16 B.C) but then again, the metaphysics industry is a competitive business so each to his/her own. At the end of the day whether to gel or not lies in the hands of practitioners but without adhererance to ancestral conventions, the magic of Bazi can never be fully illuminated.

晚子時 , 早子時 is NOT a western innovation, but IS a 'western concept of time' INFLUENCED concept within Bazi circles in the FarEast.  In the sixties, this concept was already accepted and practiced by many Hong Kong and Taiwan masters.  Their argument is based on the western concept of time -- that the next day starts at 00:00 hrs.   So did ZiPing started to turn in his grave in the sixties? or earlier?

There is a little bit of logic in this concept because if we look in-between the two extremes of Black and White, there are different shades of grey.  From Black graduating to White, it starts with 99% grey gradually brightening to 50% grey, and then starting at 50% (half white half black) graduating to 75% white then  99% ......

Qi transforms in a similar fashion.....

Those who practice Late Rat and Early Rat may not be entirely wrong.

Therefore to look at Time objectively and simply, as Black and White only is to defeat the whole purpose of Xuan Xue 玄学.

玄中有玄, 玄玄不熄

MoonChin

[Scorpiez]

晚子時 , 早子時 is NOT a western innovation, but IS a 'western concept of time' INFLUENCED concept within Bazi circles in the FarEast.  In the sixties, this concept was already accepted and practiced by many Hong Kong and Taiwan masters.  Their argument is based on the western concept of time -- that the next day starts at 00:00 hrs.   So did ZiPing started to turn in his grave in the sixties? or earlier?

There is a little bit of logic in this concept because if we look in-between the two extremes of Black and White, there are different shades of grey.  From Black graduating to White, it starts with 99% grey gradually brightening to 50% grey, and then starting at 50% (half white half black) graduating to 75% white then  99% ......

Qi transforms in a similar fashion.....

Those who practice Late Rat and Early Rat may not be entirely wrong.

Therefore to look at Time objectively and simply, as Black and White only is to defeat the whole purpose of Xuan Xue 玄学.

玄中有玄, 玄玄不熄

MoonChin

Hi Moonchin,
                 Thanks for your response and contribution.

                 First of all, I still feel that what you contributed still converges to a 'No Confidence' Vote on the current practice of distorting the Rat Hour (which if you ask me, has no room for logic at all). Which is simply my point in the beginning, why is there a need to manoeuvre fundamental concepts and ancient, no less, to gel with western concept when this is an Eastern philosophy? Due credit should be afforded to the fact that Bazi was, has been and should always be applicable within the origin of its establishment. Hence, I simply see no reason for this practice to be engineered so as to seem more 'believable' to the west which if so, defies the fundamentals of 玄学 ironically! - ie I question and ask why can't people accept that a new day starts at 23:00hrs (11pm)? - the fact that China has 5000years + of history should lay authority in this probable accuracy!

                You mentioned: 'There is a little bit of logic in this concept because if we look in-between the two extremes of Black and White, there are different shades of grey.  From Black graduating to White, it starts with 99% grey graduall y brightening to 50% grey, and then starting at 50% (half white half black) graduating to 75% white then  99% ......' Well, 徐子平 Xu Zi Ping certainly didn't have this in mind much less infuse this in his 淵海子平 (though it is indeed good to illustrate the flow of Qi) and would much less want to confuse his descendants (us!)! What you provided is the Yin-Yang model which does not really apply in this case because the distortion of the RAT hour is downright Wrong! - there's no grey area, that you mentioned as a new day in the practise of Chinese Metaphysics (Bazi, Zi Wei dou shu etc) starts strictly at 23:00hrs - the Qi has already shifted to the following day - Period. But current practice distorts it and parallels it the modern standards of time by laying that the change of day takes place at 0000hrs, factually in accordance to the Clock, but not applicable with Bazi.

               In addition: 'Therefore to look at Time objectively and simply, as Black and White only is to defeat the whole purpose of Xuan Xue 玄学. 玄中有玄, 玄玄不熄' You know what, I think 玄学 cannot be applied in Bazi. What is the objective of Bazi in any case? Isn't it life analysis in short? Life's already full of uncertainties and thoroughly unpredictable so individuals who take up life analysis want SOLUTIONS to their problems or more appropriately, root to their problems. Hence, analysis should be as accurate and straight-forward as possible. '玄学含义是指立言与行事两个方面，并多以立言玄妙，行事雅远为玄远旷达....' - ironically, this defies the objective of Bazi reading as much as 'new age' regulations does and that is the compromisation of accuracy on the basis of allowing room for inaccuracy.

              In conclusion, it is better to be either BLACK or WHITE in Bazi, in order to expound upon its authority.

Thanks.

[Manty]

Hey Moonchin:

Long time no see (or talk or better yet, mail).  At any rate, happy Western New Year to you and yours.

晚子時 , 早子時 is NOT a western innovation, but IS a 'western concept of time' INFLUENCED concept within Bazi circles in the FarEast. 

I think we are basically saying this with different nuances. 

In the sixties, this concept was already accepted and practiced by many Hong Kong and Taiwan masters.  Their argument is based on the western concept of time -- that the next day starts at 00:00 hrs.   So did ZiPing started to turn in his grave in the sixties? or earlier?

Yes, I am familiar with this so called argument.  However, at least in Taiwan, it was not an issue among the traditional practitioners of Bazi.  It was, however, a hot topic, among the "learn it yourself with books" practitioners of Bazi.

For Venerable Master Ziping, I think he saw it coming  and hence he is not turning in his grave.

There is a little bit of logic in this concept because if we look in-between the two extremes of Black and White, there are different shades of grey.  From Black graduating to White, it starts with 99% grey gradually brightening to 50% grey, and then starting at 50% (half white half black) graduating to 75% white then  99% ......

I think that more than using the argument of flow and reflow or ebbing and waning, this idea makes sense to those who are simply used to reckoning time in the Western fashion.

For me to eat food with fork, especially metal made fork is, shall I say a bit of a yucky experience.  I like to eat with wooden chopsticks or with chopsticks fashioned freshly from fragrant green bamboo canes.  I think it is a supreme culinary experience way beyond that of "Iron Chef".  However, I have good western friends that are grossed out with the wet feeling of fresh bamboo chopsticks, and I see in them the same kind of yuckiness I feel when I need to eat with a metal fork or spoon.

So it is not really a matter of black and white, but more a matter of what one is used to.

For many Westerners the notion that the day starts at 11:00 pm is weird.  At 11:00 pm they do not FEEL the new Qi.  The want to wait until 12:00 midnight which, for them, is a natural changing over time.

So when I do Western Astrology I use that standard.  But when I do Bazi, I do not.  Likewise, when I eat, I prefer to eat with chopsticks, especially Chinese food.  It just feel weird to eat with fork and knife and spoon over flat big plates.  When I am eating Western food, well, when I do not have my trusty portable chopsticks with me, I force myself to eat with.. ahem... those metal thingies.

For some reason, this post has made me hungry...

What shall we cook Moonchin?  How about those wonderful Malasyan wraps... I forgot what they are called... don't need to use chopsticks nor forks.  Or some Thai Banseo..?

Manty

[Manty]

Greetings Quakhkc:

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I think what scorpio.matrix and manty meant is (as an example) to treat DOB 9th Jan 2009, 23.45 hour and plot the chart as though the DOB is 10th Jan 2009, 00:15 hour, ignoring the concept of Late/Early Rat hour. This way, you're using the next day's stem (10th Jan) to "dun" the hour stem using Zi (Rat) as the hour branch.

You just nailed it.

We all know that there is always some problems, qi (氣) wise, toward the end of the chinese double hour.  One of the terminologies used to describe this problem is Zhuo Qi (濁氣) and it basically means that the Qi is abit confused, in chaos, or better said, it is quite difficult to determine what Qi is present.  If someone is born at 12:58 am, technically is rat (子) but because of Zhuo Qi, it may have elements of Chou (丑) or, in fact, it may be Chou.  So it is always wise to make two different charts in these cases.

Now, in the case of the Rat, or Zi (子時) hour, the so called late rat is a huge case of Da Zhuo Qi (大濁氣), because experientially for those who have grown in the Western system, 11:00 pm to 12:00 midnight does not "feel" right as the onset of the new day.

And this, me thinks; this, me says, is the crux of the matter.

Manty, feeling better after eating some spring rolls (with my bare hands).