Rat Hour = New Day in accordance to the Lunar Calendar

[Shi Xiang]

greetings everyone,

i have an imaginative theory of my own to share ,

 i read and i heard before that we the human (mind), is being affected by the moon (the revolution of the moon) around the earth and solar system, where we behave differently according to the change of this moon?(especially during the full moon period, our mind is more active and etc.) ? maybe this moon excert a kind of force that influence our mind,.. influence the baby mind when they are still in the worm of their mother , and when these babies come out from their mother worm, and the moment they come out from their mother worm(birth), somehow their behavior and maybe their "subconscious mind" of the first impression of this world had been influence by these nature environment force, largely influenced by the moon? e.g person born in night winter, enviroment more coolerm thus their behavior will be more different compare to those born at summer , and 10 HS maybe can be explain by the state of the moon 

and from here i believe the western astrology start of how they had explain the characteristic of a person according to the month (revolution and the state of the moon of each month)?

or can we say that once we can know what is the force that influence these babies during their birth, we can know their faith ?if this is the case,i believe that we can change our fate (due to extra motivation and determination) though getting rid of the barrier that is being set up by these force during our birth, but i wonder how many person can do that?maybe from here the feng sui arise lol,...

  , very hard to explain it in words,.. doubt u all can understand

regards

[Scorpiez]

Hi scorpio.matrix,

You seem to find forum "discussion" a fuss or even an argument. For me, the more feedback and views from members, the more I learn - even through different perspectives. This is a forum, remember?

Regarding progress in five arts, take the Chinese calendars for example, even the ancient Chinese had changed the start of a new year a few times. Is the first version always better? Is the latest version better? I feel it's much better we try to understand why or how they derived the first version, why or how the next, and we can decide for ourself which one to follow - at least that is how I do it while others may prefer to do it other ways.

Study of time, clock and calendar is basically math and astronomy. Even the atomic clock today is not 100% accurate, and finding the difference in 0.0000001 second is called mathematical curiosity. Labeling something like fivearts as science is really just a label.

We analyse ba zi charts by "using unreal to derive real" (以假取真）. Can that be called science?

 

Dear Fellow Threaders,
                               First of all, I have to apologise for sounding harsh and impulsive in my prior replies to you all respectively! Have been churning replies whilst juggling a hectic workload here in law school and ohhh...talking about a respite! Haha...I thought this forum was until I realise my posts didn't sound exactly less combative as I would have to be in classes. So once again, sorry if I had offended any. 

(Ok..back to business)

You seem to find forum "discussion" a fuss or even an argument. For me, the more feedback and views from members, the more I learn - even through different perspectives. This is a forum, remember?

Nope meek, I don't find forum 'discussion' any more challenging that what I go through in school, it's the tip of an iceberg if I could disclaim. In any case, it is true that the learning curve (esp in forums) is proportional to the responses plus views you get from fellow threaders like us. But you have to agree that as in 2 sides of a coin and much more so in vulnerable arena(s) like a forum in this context,

1. You might not get educated responses and questions. Some deliver to confuse others or derail the objective of a thread.

2. Fellow threaders might find it hard to converge or could even dispute the motion of a thread due to cultural differences, moulded perceptions etc etc (very much so for this thread!)

So I hope you weren't be disappointed when I say there's really nothing much you can learn from this thread. Sounds harsh? Yeah, but I'm being honest! Why? Simply because there's no room for debate/argument/discussion for a concept like the Rat Hour which is fixed at 23:00hrs of the previous day to 0100hrs of the next. It's not like the determination of a day master's strength where there are endless possibilities that can be converted into chronicles.

Where the motion of this thread is concerned and when I mentioned opinions welcome, I was actually hoping to receive a flood of responses from those born or who know any of their loved ones born within the Rat hour, and are facing this dilemma. Apparently, this has not been the case! Haha..but hey, what's the deal? This might ensue into something beneficial for those foreign to this concern and it could eventually churn an antidote to clear current yet confusing misconceptions.

Is the first version always better? Is the latest version better? I feel it's much better we try to understand why or how they derived the first version, why or how the next, and we can decide for ourself which one to follow - at least that is how I do it while others may prefer to do it other ways.

Hey meek, unfortunately so! It might come as a surprise and ironically from this law student but Bazi is not a law that governs nor does it seek to regulate the actions of mankind towards ideality plus order. The law revolves around mankind but Bazi does not. The avenues via which mankind can be criminalised are increasing every year but the domain within which Bazi can manoeuvred doesn't exist. Because this is Zi Ping Bazi (uniquely his) but Xu Zi Ping has passed on and it's just too bad he cannot be hearing any 'grievances' anymore - But that is the fact. As such, what's the law for Bazi? It's Yuan Hai Zi Ping - the very authority that does not mention a word about the Late and Early Rat hours, simply because he didn't have to deal with it!

As I have stated the Rat hour was intended to be the start of a new day in ancient China and in the context of modern time, it is 23:00hrs and hence, it has to be so. No basis for argument, as reinforced.

You can surely choose to interpret the way you like but that's not orthodox Zi Ping Bazi already. Because frankly, the authority is Yuan Hai Zi Ping not you. (No offence!) I mean it's basically a laissez faire world now, so no one's stopping you from doing what you like but that's where you run into the risk of inaccuracy and self-deception because there could be things you choose to believe and/or discard, while forsaking authority and orthodoxy.

Study of time, clock and calendar is basically math and astronomy. Even the atomic clock today is not 100% accurate, and finding the difference in 0.0000001 second is called mathematical curiosity. Labeling something like fivearts as science is really just a label.

We analyse ba zi charts by "using unreal to derive real" (以假取真）. Can that be called science?

Forgive me but my area of specialty lies in Bazi, exclusively and it weren't be within my capacity to comment on other arts. But if you were to examine the background of Bazi, it stems from chinese astrology which is really nothing but astronomy. Can it be called science? Of course, it is! There's nothing supernatural about it, nothing superstitious, nothing mythical. It is a study with basis ie the particular arrangement of stars/constellations at the time of a person's birth that translates to the representation by Heavenly stems plus Earthly branches, the weight/balance/ratio of the Wu Xing at the time of birth etc etc.

The fact that I say Bazi is science could hardly be considered a label but a fact. (Again, you would have to read up on ancient Chinese classics to know the real deal, which really poses a problem for you fundamentally if you have not)

Thanks!

 
                               

[learnerforlife]

Very interesting discussion

To me it is very simple - you don't really have to discuss theories or wonder whether this is right or wrong, you can simply test it in real cases this is my view on both BaZi and FS.

I myself think I have contributed a lot by putting my own case up here for discussion on this issue.... but there were maybe not enough of the socalled experts that were ready to put their analysis into it, although some of them did and I am thankful for that.

I am a person born in this hour and have found it quite confusing to look at my BaZi and also to have others look at it as there seems to be so many different opinions and even some said that it seems I would be effected by both charts.

But IMHO the experts here should be able to at least look into a few cases to compare which DM fits better to the persons life history if they know them well or have some important information. You would probably need quite a few cases for this so you can make sure which is more accurate.

My case is in this forum open for enthusiasts to learn from as I have given lots of information.

If you however, scorpio-matrix have an interest to test your own skills without looking into the threads about my case then you can try to see what you find out with this chart. From my own view my life fits better with what you are saying, that my chart produces new DM of next day.
2nd August 1972 born just before midnight.

[blah]

Hi scorpio.matrix,

You seem to find forum "discussion" a fuss or even an argument. For me, the more feedback and views from members, the more I learn - even through different perspectives. This is a forum, remember?

Regarding progress in five arts, take the Chinese calendars for example, even the ancient Chinese had changed the start of a new year a few times. Is the first version always better? Is the latest version better? I feel it's much better we try to understand why or how they derived the first version, why or how the next, and we can decide for ourself which one to follow - at least that is how I do it while others may prefer to do it other ways.

Study of time, clock and calendar is basically math and astronomy. Even the atomic clock today is not 100% accurate, and finding the difference in 0.0000001 second is called mathematical curiosity. Labeling something like fivearts as science is really just a label.

We analyse ba zi charts by "using unreal to derive real" (以假取真）. Can that be called science?

 

That's called far-fetched conclusion science.

In Astrology there is no physical evidence or basis for how Astrology is real, but Astrologers took a leap and decided they would posit that the stars and date could affect the rest of one's life.

And they would prove it through probability analysis of people born, occupations that rise and fall, killers born with certain configurations, people that rise to fame.

But since it's such a far-fetched conclusion everything is still hazy and nothing has been derived yet, we have to yet to fully master this science at all. Only a few things like 10 deities or even the five-element interactions so far are the only things I have found to be correct to a certain extent.

Everything else is still hazy, people debate this all the time.

While normal science is still calculating formulas for the rate of a ball dropping and psychology is still mapping and failing at why people do the things they do.

People now are taking advantage of far-fetched hypothesis that date can affect one's entire life.

By the time we fully master this science and discover all the mathematical rules and truths will probably be the time normal science has discovered why Astrology works too. So we're not reall ahead of the curve.

Science is just building down from the ground up with a solid basis, we're just taking a big leap and assuming the most far-fetched.

So I guess while now we have a little advantage we can't guarantee what we predict is right, nor really explain it as to why it was correct, if it was.

Wu Wu Wu Wu
Wu Wu Wu Wu , this person will die because he hits water because he is a follow chart, or he dies because a certain god comes and kills him because there are 8 wus in his chart, or maybe because he has four similar pillars and thus it activate a certain luck where someone is killed at a certain time, who knowss....

Even in normal science though they have established things there is no guarantee that in some other universe the rules are the same.

You can only document what happens OVER AND OVER again and thus be sure it happens every time you do it but you can never know why.

Who knows maybe a great god sat down one day and said hey I'll write down a set of like 8 rules and then whenever someone does something I'll make sure it goes according to those rules. And then maybe that's why the laws of physics work, maybe it's not because there are gravitons or tiny particles that expel each other.

And when he stops eveything will fall apart, you know we have no way of knowing whatsoever.

Maybe the earth is hollow, maybe it's flat, maybe it's finite, maybe the sky is veil and behind it are the workings of strange beings that propel the earth with qi and make destiny true, maybe the sky is black sheet and the holes where the light of heaven come through are stars, or maybe the earth is hollow and the stars are large chunks of ice frozen on the side of the outer wall.

Maybe,, maybe, maybe.

You know scientists only know certain particles that interact with other particles. We have no way of knowing if other particles exist, particles that cannot interact with our particles and thus we cannot see them or discover them.

Hundreds, millions of universes could be transpiring right now within your own space, you could be sitting where a man is giving a lecture or you could be 10 feet underground, thousands if NOT MILLIONS of unknown universes and being could be transpiring and pass through the very space where you exist right now.

Simply because the particles of our existence, electrons, neutrons, can only react and respond to other electrons and neutrons and no other unknown particles.

An atom is mostly space.

The greatest war, sex scene, underwater, space, a council of gods, aliens, people, a crowded street etc. I don't know all could be transpiring through your space right now. Where you sitting and standing etc. You could be inside a person's body, talking, they could be talking, you could be talking to them.


Maybe even facing them.

Anyways at least were are slightly sure that Bazi is real. I know this because I am mostly able to guess a person's DM just by looking at them, like celebrities, I saw Kristen Bell and I was like water person, and she was.

All my cousins, Fire DMs, a friend of mine is a Water DM he asks about all his other friends, like three of them, all Ren DMs, just like him.

Kristen Bell was also wearing a Blue jacket with a black shirt.

So you know.

 newbielink:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elle_Bishop [nonactive]

 newbielink:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology [nonactive]

 newbielink:http://images.google.com/images?q=hollow%20earth&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7ADBS&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi [nonactive]

[Scorpiez]

I have to watch my words now since meek (the administrator) had earlier highlighted that I sounded discontent with discussions but I'm not. However, it's inevitable that I feel a little frustrated when the discussion doesn't line in tune with the motion of this thread.

                    So after this post, let's just accept the Rat Hour as:

1. Beginning of a new day (Conceptually in accordance to othodox Zi Ping Bazi)

2. The First hour of day (not the first and last! - as Early and Late Rat hour distorts - because Pig's the last)

3. The line in changing your Day pillar to the following.

I'm very sure there will be opposition probably from valued fellow threaders from HK, Taiwan and the West who have been infused into 'New Age' Bazi but for those of you who are Overseas Chinese (华侨) do ask your grandparents or older generation about the 23:00hrs = Start of a new day concept, and you'll get my point  I'm a 华裔 (huayi) and hail from Henan, China, which is one of the reasons why I'm very disciplined and staunch about strict adherance to conventions.

                   Back in China, we certainly didn't have Bazi readings with the distortion of Rat hours. My first contact with this 'weirdo' came while I was on exchange in the States years ago and in due correspondence with my own Bazi consultant back home, he remarked it as 'rubbish'. I then referred to my old grandparents and they thought it was an attempt to revolutionise Chinese practise (what an insult!). Now, do not underestimate the importance of the Rat Hour for the Chinese.

                   It's because of the fact that the Rat hour is a new day for us that we ignite fire-crackers to welcome the Lunar New Year at 23:00hrs on the Eve, it's the time where we make the annual grand offering to the Jade Emperor each Lunar New Year and it's also the point where we start to receive the souls of the dead on the 7th day. That's how important the Rat hour is to us. Back home, even when doing Bazi analysis we use the Lunar Calendar instead of the Gregorian one and birthdays are remembered according the Lunar one, amongst the older generation.

                   That's the deal and hardly any room for far-fetched conclusion, as blah mentioned.

 

[Scorpiez]

It seems that the convention of when a "new day" starts is a cultural artifice. Westerners like midnight. But if we are going to use Chinese metaphysics, we must work within its assumptions.

Hi devadog,
                 Exactly. You got the point - good for you!

Thanks.

 

[blah]

Yes that's a very good point, always made  me wonder Why have  a Rat hour if it's not the start of the new day.

[Scorpiez]

Very interesting discussion

To me it is very simple - you don't really have to discuss theories or wonder whether this is right or wrong, you can simply test it in real cases this is my view on both BaZi and FS.

I myself think I have contributed a lot by putting my own case up here for discussion on this issue.... but there were maybe not enough of the socalled experts that were ready to put their analysis into it, although some of them did and I am thankful for that.

I am a person born in this hour and have found it quite confusing to look at my BaZi and also to have others look at it as there seems to be so many different opinions and even some said that it seems I would be effected by both charts.

But IMHO the experts here should be able to at least look into a few cases to compare which DM fits better to the persons life history if they know them well or have some important information. You would probably need quite a few cases for this so you can make sure which is more accurate.

My case is in this forum open for enthusiasts to learn from as I have given lots of information.

If you however, scorpio-matrix have an interest to test your own skills without looking into the threads about my case then you can try to see what you find out with this chart. From my own view my life fits better with what you are saying, that my chart produces new DM of next day.
2nd August 1972 born just before midnight.

Dear learnerforlife,
                         Thank you for the post!

                         I'm in the intermediate stages of my Bazi study and it's currently on hiatus because I'm away from home pursuing my post-grad studies, and as far as I've basic analysis skills I can't be considered a Master. So for the sake of professionalism, I must kindly reject your offer to do an analysis for your chart. 

                         However, back home in China, we certainly did not analyse charts according to Late/Night Rat hours - it was just a clear cut Rat hour which is a 2 hours entity flowing from 23:00hrs the previous day to 01:00hrs of the next. Hence, 'compare which DM fits better to the persons life history' was definitely what Masters there didn't bother to teach simply because we didn't think there was any confusion with technicalities and much less imagine that there could be any distort to conventions. I guess there's certainly a drastic distinction between the methodology of education between China and the rest of the world. (Now that I'm in England, I realise!)

                        But manty and moochin, maybe you two experienced Masters could kindly assist, please?

Thanks!

[Scorpiez]

That's called far-fetched conclusion science.

In Astrology there is no physical evidence or basis for how Astrology is real, but Astrologers took a leap and decided they would posit that the stars and date could affect the rest of one's life.

And they would prove it through probability analysis of people born, occupations that rise and fall, killers born with certain configurations, people that rise to fame.

But since it's such a far-fetched conclusion everything is still hazy and nothing has been derived yet, we have to yet to fully master this science at all. Only a few things like 10 deities or even the five-element interactions so far are the only things I have found to be correct to a certain extent.

Everything else is still hazy, people debate this all the time.

While normal science is still calculating formulas for the rate of a ball dropping and psychology is still mapping and failing at why people do the things they do.

People now are taking advantage of far-fetched hypothesis that date can affect one's entire life.

By the time we fully master this science and discover all the mathematical rules and truths will probably be the time normal science has discovered why Astrology works too. So we're not reall ahead of the curve.

Science is just building down from the ground up with a solid basis, we're just taking a big leap and assuming the most far-fetched.

So I guess while now we have a little advantage we can't guarantee what we predict is right, nor really explain it as to why it was correct, if it was.

Wu Wu Wu Wu
Wu Wu Wu Wu , this person will die because he hits water because he is a follow chart, or he dies because a certain god comes and kills him because there are 8 wus in his chart, or maybe because he has four similar pillars and thus it activate a certain luck where someone is killed at a certain time, who knowss....

Even in normal science though they have established things there is no guarantee that in some other universe the rules are the same.

You can only document what happens OVER AND OVER again and thus be sure it happens every time you do it but you can never know why.

Who knows maybe a great god sat down one day and said hey I'll write down a set of like 8 rules and then whenever someone does something I'll make sure it goes according to those rules. And then maybe that's why the laws of physics work, maybe it's not because there are gravitons or tiny particles that expel each other.

And when he stops eveything will fall apart, you know we have no way of knowing whatsoever.

Maybe the earth is hollow, maybe it's flat, maybe it's finite, maybe the sky is veil and behind it are the workings of strange beings that propel the earth with qi and make destiny true, maybe the sky is black sheet and the holes where the light of heaven come through are stars, or maybe the earth is hollow and the stars are large chunks of ice frozen on the side of the outer wall.

Maybe,, maybe, maybe.

You know scientists only know certain particles that interact with other particles. We have no way of knowing if other particles exist, particles that cannot interact with our particles and thus we cannot see them or discover them.

Hundreds, millions of universes could be transpiring right now within your own space, you could be sitting where a man is giving a lecture or you could be 10 feet underground, thousands if NOT MILLIONS of unknown universes and being could be transpiring and pass through the very space where you exist right now.

Simply because the particles of our existence, electrons, neutrons, can only react and respond to other electrons and neutrons and no other unknown particles.

An atom is mostly space.

The greatest war, sex scene, underwater, space, a council of gods, aliens, people, a crowded street etc. I don't know all could be transpiring through your space right now. Where you sitting and standing etc. You could be inside a person's body, talking, they could be talking, you could be talking to them.


Maybe even facing them.

Anyways at least were are slightly sure that Bazi is real. I know this because I am mostly able to guess a person's DM just by looking at them, like celebrities, I saw Kristen Bell and I was like water person, and she was.

All my cousins, Fire DMs, a friend of mine is a Water DM he asks about all his other friends, like three of them, all Ren DMs, just like him.

Kristen Bell was also wearing a Blue jacket with a black shirt.

So you know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elle_Bishop [nofollow]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology [nofollow]

http://images.google.com/images?q=hollow%20earth&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7ADBS&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi [nofollow]

Dear blah,
              I beg to differ that Zi Ping Bazi is a 'far-fetched conclusion science'.

              Now Bazi has been an influential part in Chinese convention for generations and the underlying assumption is that it is founded, proven, tested and verified. We can arugue amongst ourselves about the probabilities (no offence but an education in the West seemed to accentuate to much on that) whilst forgetting the realities. And Bazi in every sense of its own worth is not as cheap as you made it sound because I guess you're forgetting that it makes up only 33.3% of one's life. Remember the Trinity? (I'm not talking about God-Father-Son here)

Trinity: Heavenly-Man-Earth

Heavenly Luck: Bazi Chart - 33.3%

Man luck: Where he/she's born, parents, friends etc - 33.3%

Earth luck: What is very well known today as FENGSHUI - 33.3%

Doing our sums, we get a tally of 99.9%

                  Now, I believe then that our Chinese forefathers would have been smart enough to realise that conclusions could be 'far-fetched' (like what you mentioned) and that's probably why there's a 0.01% left for the Universe to dictate Lady luck - now this is what you were talking about. It is fundamentally wrong to think that Bazi = our Life destiny, it has never meant to be. Bazi offers the truth and illuminates the direction within the domain of 33.3% and it's 100% of the the 33.3% - it couldn't possibly be inconclusive.

Who knows maybe a great god sat down one day and said hey I'll write down a set of like 8 rules and then whenever someone does something I'll make sure it goes according to those rules. And then maybe that's why the laws of physics work, maybe it's not because there are gravitons or tiny particles that expel each other.

And when he stops eveything will fall apart, you know we have no way of knowing whatsoever.

Maybe the earth is hollow, maybe it's flat, maybe it's finite, maybe the sky is veil and behind it are the workings of strange beings that propel the earth with qi and make destiny true, maybe the sky is black sheet and the holes where the light of heaven come through are stars, or maybe the earth is hollow and the stars are large chunks of ice frozen on the side of the outer wall.

Maybe,, maybe, maybe.

You know scientists only know certain particles that interact with other particles. We have no way of knowing if other particles exist, particles that cannot interact with our particles and thus we cannot see them or discover them.

Hundreds, millions of universes could be transpiring right now within your own space, you could be sitting where a man is giving a lecture or you could be 10 feet underground, thousands if NOT MILLIONS of unknown universes and being could be transpiring and pass through the very space where you exist right now.

Simply because the particles of our existence, electrons, neutrons, can only react and respond to other electrons and neutrons and no other unknown particles.

An atom is mostly space.

I would take that all as a joke. Haha...but if you think that's sensible well...umm...hardly so. You would know that the Chinese are perhaps one of the greatest inventors on Earth (but frankly, I think we're the greatest -sorry for sounding snobbish - God forbid!  ) and our forefathers certainly weren't the 'great god sat down one day and said hey I'll write down a set of like 8 rules'

Science is science. It's conceptually wrong harmonise far-fetched conclusion and science because the latter is derived via collection of data in the form of observations, records of observable physical evidence of natural phenomena, and analyze this information to construct theoretical explanations of how things work. I would say when theories are established, the phenomenon has already been verified and recognised. How otherwise can knowledge be imparted if scientists weren't sure what they were talking about? If it's inconclusive it couldn't be science.

So Master Xu Zi Ping must certainly know what he was talking about and would surely have verified the material in his Yuan Hai Zi Ping because if not, I think his descendants would have been smart enough to shelve it away. The very fact that Bazi is alive, thriving churning interests outside China today is an emblem that this works and speaks the truth!

The greatest war, sex scene, underwater, space, a council of gods, aliens, people, a crowded street etc. I don't know all could be transpiring through your space right now. Where you sitting and standing etc. You could be inside a person's body, talking, they could be talking, you could be talking to them

blah, I think you were spinning and talking to yourself by the time you reached this paragraph. Perhaps, you may want to join and focus with the discussion on Rat hour rather than flying in some UFOs here. Because frankly, I think fellow threaders are more interested with the Motion of this thread.

Thanks again!

[blah]

Dear blah,
              I beg to differ that Zi Ping Bazi is a 'far-fetched conclusion science'.

              Now Bazi has been an influential part in Chinese convention for generations and the underlying assumption is that it is founded, proven, tested and verified. We can arugue amongst ourselves about the probabilities (no offence but an education in the West seemed to accentuate to much on that) whilst forgetting the realities. And Bazi in every sense of its own worth is not as cheap as you made it sound because I guess you're forgetting that it makes up only 33.3% of one's life. Remember the Trinity? (I'm not talking about God-Father-Son here)

Trinity: Heavenly-Man-Earth

Heavenly Luck: Bazi Chart - 33.3%

Man luck: Where he/she's born, parents, friends etc - 33.3%

Earth luck: What is very well known today as FENGSHUI - 33.3%

Doing our sums, we get a tally of 99.9%

                  Now, I believe then that our Chinese forefathers would have been smart enough to realise that conclusions could be 'far-fetched' (like what you mentioned) and that's probably why there's a 0.01% left for the Universe to dictate Lady luck - now this is what you were talking about. It is fundamentally wrong to think that Bazi = our Life destiny, it has never meant to be. Bazi offers the truth and illuminates the direction within the domain of 33.3% and it's 100% of the the 33.3% - it couldn't possibly be inconclusive.

Who knows maybe a great god sat down one day and said hey I'll write down a set of like 8 rules and then whenever someone does something I'll make sure it goes according to those rules. And then maybe that's why the laws of physics work, maybe it's not because there are gravitons or tiny particles that expel each other.

And when he stops eveything will fall apart, you know we have no way of knowing whatsoever.

Maybe the earth is hollow, maybe it's flat, maybe it's finite, maybe the sky is veil and behind it are the workings of strange beings that propel the earth with qi and make destiny true, maybe the sky is black sheet and the holes where the light of heaven come through are stars, or maybe the earth is hollow and the stars are large chunks of ice frozen on the side of the outer wall.

Maybe,, maybe, maybe.

You know scientists only know certain particles that interact with other particles. We have no way of knowing if other particles exist, particles that cannot interact with our particles and thus we cannot see them or discover them.

Hundreds, millions of universes could be transpiring right now within your own space, you could be sitting where a man is giving a lecture or you could be 10 feet underground, thousands if NOT MILLIONS of unknown universes and being could be transpiring and pass through the very space where you exist right now.

Simply because the particles of our existence, electrons, neutrons, can only react and respond to other electrons and neutrons and no other unknown particles.

An atom is mostly space.

I would take that all as a joke. Haha...but if you think that's sensible well...umm...hardly so. You would know that the Chinese are perhaps one of the greatest inventors on Earth (but frankly, I think we're the greatest -sorry for sounding snobbish - God forbid!  ) and our forefathers certainly weren't the 'great god sat down one day and said hey I'll write down a set of like 8 rules'

Science is science. It's conceptually wrong harmonise far-fetched conclusion and science because the latter is derived via collection of data in the form of observations, records of observable physical evidence of natural phenomena, and analyze this information to construct theoretical explanations of how things work. I would say when theories are established, the phenomenon has already been verified and recognised. How otherwise can knowledge be imparted if scientists weren't sure what they were talking about? If it's inconclusive it couldn't be science.

So Master Xu Zi Ping must certainly know what he was talking about and would surely have verified the material in his Yuan Hai Zi Ping because if not, I think his descendants would have been smart enough to shelve it away. The very fact that Bazi is alive, thriving churning interests outside China today is an emblem that this works and speaks the truth!

The greatest war, sex scene, underwater, space, a council of gods, aliens, people, a crowded street etc. I don't know all could be transpiring through your space right now. Where you sitting and standing etc. You could be inside a person's body, talking, they could be talking, you could be talking to them

blah, I think you were spinning and talking to yourself by the time you reached this paragraph. Perhaps, you may want to join and focus with the discussion on Rat hour rather than flying in some UFOs here. Because frankly, I think fellow threaders are more interested with the Motion of this thread.

Thanks again!

Yeah I know all that, but the god sat down one day can technically be true. And that's my whole point.

I'm pretty sure they didn't do math with percentages, intentionally leaving over 0.1% . First of all they never divided it into 1/3s anyways. And the reason 0.1% is left over is not because they intentionally left it like that it's because 33.3% is not an accurate representation of 1/3 which is why people keep bitching over this problem of.

Well if you divided 1 into 3 and get 33.3 repeating and add it together you get 9.9 repeating but that's not 10, so what is it. Well it's because 3.3 repeating is not 1/3 in the first place. It is impossible to represent 1/3 like that, first of all because it's repeating and even though it's repeating doesn't mean it will ever reach 1/4 or 1/3 .

So basically they never divided into 1/3s and left over 0.1% to leave you all to philosophical speculation. First of all I'm pretty sure the Chinese never used percentages. Second of all the division is: 40% Heaven, 35% Feng Shui, 25% Man or so I hear.

From Hua Yibo, it was 80% Destiny which is 40% Bazi 40% Luck Pillar (I think there was division, actually no), 10% FS, 5% Ancestor's Grave Site, 5% Name.

My point is you can neither prove or disprove, the god sat down and wrote 8 rules theory. It's not ridiculous, it very well may be true. Just like the flying spaghetti monster people posit. "WELL IF THERE IS A GOD, why can't I say there was a flying spaghetting monster instead". Makes perfect sense, same conclusion. And yes this is all scientifically and logically sensible.

Besides no one has ever scientifically proven the trinity of luck into 1/3s and if you are going to say yes someone has then that's just plain stupid.

Anyways my point is you can never know the true explanation of something and all that I said above is true.

Bazi is not an accepted science by many, because it's still far-fetched. It is and you must admit it.

It's so far-fetched while we're stuck on determining physical laws.

None of it has been scientifically proven and yes I have ran scientific studies myself.

This is why we argue, spend 30 years on a natal chart, why we ask, why we wonder why this person died and that person didn't and come up with new conclusions etc.

Right now Bazi can neither be proven or disproven because there are no set yes this will produce results rules, everyone is arguing, even the five element theory is not always accurate and everything is subjective. If you say your dad is more inolved in your life because he has significant cai elements and he denies, and is like no, well that has happened to me before (I believe), basically it's so hard to quantify. Not all Astrologers agree on everything and it is a very hazy thing, so hazy that you can draw almost any conclusion to fit any set of circumstances.

There are so many rules and new theories that can give an explanation for any situation, which makes Bazi true in any circumstance and thus can't be proven wrong or right.

That's why it's not a science.

Have you heard of the five-element reversal theory? In this theory when an elemtn is too strong is acts like the element that destroys it and must be treated as such.

How complicated is that? It's five elements for god's sake.

People even still debate strong or weak, follow or not, which god to use, in any case there is always someone supporting whatever side even the most far fetched one.

And when the real life result comes you just pick the one that explains it because there was always someone supporting the most far-fetched side and thus you can always prove Bazi was right.

Hey wait a minute he's famous but lack destroyer element.

Well he has a silent push (that's so out there).

ohh....


Hey this person has so many destroyer elements but isn't famous.

Well it's because he's too weak to handle it.....

oh.... but he has many roots

well it's because they are combined away

into the element that destroys him

well the combo is not valid because another one overrides it

no that combo overrides it

(and then they get into a whole argument about what overrides what etc. seriously though where do people get hierarchies, Vincent Koh must have made his up because all the classics say is that combos override clashes, and not which combos override which or if both happen at the same or both not at all, or if which combo overrides which)

Anyways whatever I said was scientifically and logically correct.

good night, hands are tired.

[Manty]

Hi again Moonchin.

This is getting to be quite a heated debate.

There are two sides to a coin, and there will always be differing views on the same issue.  What works for one may not work for another.  The world changes everyday and ancient systems will have to withstand the onslaught of modern concepts and thinking, and so-called 'scientific' facts. Right or wrong will depend on the results.  There are those who swear accuracy by separating Early and Late Rat, and there are those who swear otherwise.

Having been an academician and a former university professor in the field of applied sciences, I can say that when numbers are involved, as in the case of calculating a natal chart, one should NOT go by what OTHERS say.

This is called the anecdotical method and it is shun in scientific studies.

What I recommed is case studies.  One should do lots of charts comparing the so called late rat theory with the Zi hour.  Once one has done about 100 of these charts and compare them with the life of people you are reading, one can say something coherent about it. 

Instead of saying, what other people say, it is more accurate to say, according to my case study of 100 cohorts, I can say that...

Based on that principle, I can say that the NEW DAY starts at 11:00 pm.

Now, people brought up in the Western way, has something called "confounding element" which distorts a bit my statement.  This confounding element is that those who do the charts FEEL WEIRD to think that a day will start at 11:00 pm.  There is a inherent biased build in during interpretation. 

'nough said.

Manty

[Scorpiez]

Yeah I know all that, but the god sat down one day can technically be true. And that's my whole point.

I'm pretty sure they didn't do math with percentages, intentionally leaving over 0.1% . First of all they never divided it into 1/3s anyways. And the reason 0.1% is left over is not because they intentionally left it like that it's because 33.3% is not an accurate representation of 1/3 which is why people keep bitching over this problem of.

Well if you divided 1 into 3 and get 33.3 repeating and add it together you get 9.9 repeating but that's not 10, so what is it. Well it's because 3.3 repeating is not 1/3 in the first place. It is impossible to represent 1/3 like that, first of all because it's repeating and even though it's repeating doesn't mean it will ever reach 1/4 or 1/3 .

So basically they never divided into 1/3s and left over 0.1% to leave you all to philosophical speculation. First of all I'm pretty sure the Chinese never used percentages. Second of all the division is: 40% Heaven, 35% Feng Shui, 25% Man or so I hear.

From Hua Yibo, it was 80% Destiny which is 40% Bazi 40% Luck Pillar (I think there was division, actually no), 10% FS, 5% Ancestor's Grave Site, 5% Name.

My point is you can neither prove or disprove, the god sat down and wrote 8 rules theory. It's not ridiculous, it very well may be true. Just like the flying spaghetti monster people posit. "WELL IF THERE IS A GOD, why can't I say there was a flying spaghetting monster instead". Makes perfect sense, same conclusion. And yes this is all scientifically and logically sensible.

Besides no one has ever scientifically proven the trinity of luck into 1/3s and if you are going to say yes someone has then that's just plain stupid.

Anyways my point is you can never know the true explanation of something and all that I said above is true.

Bazi is not an accepted science by many, because it's still far-fetched. It is and you must admit it.

It's so far-fetched while we're stuck on determining physical laws.

None of it has been scientifically proven and yes I have ran scientific studies myself.

This is why we argue, spend 30 years on a natal chart, why we ask, why we wonder why this person died and that person didn't and come up with new conclusions etc.

Right now Bazi can neither be proven or disproven because there are no set yes this will produce results rules, everyone is arguing, even the five element theory is not always accurate and everything is subjective. If you say your dad is more inolved in your life because he has significant cai elements and he denies, and is like no, well that has happened to me before (I believe), basically it's so hard to quantify. Not all Astrologers agree on everything and it is a very hazy thing, so hazy that you can draw almost any conclusion to fit any set of circumstances.

There are so many rules and new theories that can give an explanation for any situation, which makes Bazi true in any circumstance and thus can't be proven wrong or right.

That's why it's not a science.

Have you heard of the five-element reversal theory? In this theory when an elemtn is too strong is acts like the element that destroys it and must be treated as such.

How complicated is that? It's five elements for god's sake.

People even still debate strong or weak, follow or not, which god to use, in any case there is always someone supporting whatever side even the most far fetched one.

And when the real life result comes you just pick the one that explains it because there was always someone supporting the most far-fetched side and thus you can always prove Bazi was right.

Hey wait a minute he's famous but lack destroyer element.

Well he has a silent push (that's so out there).

ohh....


Hey this person has so many destroyer elements but isn't famous.

Well it's because he's too weak to handle it.....

oh.... but he has many roots

well it's because they are combined away

into the element that destroys him

well the combo is not valid because another one overrides it

no that combo overrides it

(and then they get into a whole argument about what overrides what etc. seriously though where do people get hierarchies, Vincent Koh must have made his up because all the classics say is that combos override clashes, and not which combos override which or if both happen at the same or both not at all, or if which combo overrides which)

Anyways whatever I said was scientifically and logically correct.

good night, hands are tired.

blah,
       You don't have to spin us and yourself like that.

       This is not a theoretical debate at the end of the day and as I've said the motion of this thread is the 'Rat hour' which really, does not require whatever you've mentioned to ascertain. If you're not Chinese and have not been brought up in Chinese culture, it's gonna take a century or forever to drill this notion into your head. So I say, save your opinions for another place and time whilst not intricating things further. It's Chinese metaphysics, so you jolly well RESPECT it.

       At the end of the day, the Rat hour is as such - it's either you accept it or not, you see. So if you're gonna embrace Bazi further, SEE it in this light and don't be self-destructive in coming up with all sorts of UFO concepts and attempt at enforcing them to our establishment.

Thank You.

[Scorpiez]

Yeah I know all that, but the god sat down one day can technically be true. And that's my whole point.

I'm pretty sure they didn't do math with percentages, intentionally leaving over 0.1% . First of all they never divided it into 1/3s anyways. And the reason 0.1% is left over is not because they intentionally left it like that it's because 33.3% is not an accurate representation of 1/3 which is why people keep bitching over this problem of.

Well if you divided 1 into 3 and get 33.3 repeating and add it together you get 9.9 repeating but that's not 10, so what is it. Well it's because 3.3 repeating is not 1/3 in the first place. It is impossible to represent 1/3 like that, first of all because it's repeating and even though it's repeating doesn't mean it will ever reach 1/4 or 1/3 .

So basically they never divided into 1/3s and left over 0.1% to leave you all to philosophical speculation. First of all I'm pretty sure the Chinese never used percentages. Second of all the division is: 40% Heaven, 35% Feng Shui, 25% Man or so I hear.

From Hua Yibo, it was 80% Destiny which is 40% Bazi 40% Luck Pillar (I think there was division, actually no), 10% FS, 5% Ancestor's Grave Site, 5% Name.

My point is you can neither prove or disprove, the god sat down and wrote 8 rules theory. It's not ridiculous, it very well may be true. Just like the flying spaghetti monster people posit. "WELL IF THERE IS A GOD, why can't I say there was a flying spaghetting monster instead". Makes perfect sense, same conclusion. And yes this is all scientifically and logically sensible.

Besides no one has ever scientifically proven the trinity of luck into 1/3s and if you are going to say yes someone has then that's just plain stupid.

Anyways my point is you can never know the true explanation of something and all that I said above is true.

Bazi is not an accepted science by many, because it's still far-fetched. It is and you must admit it.

It's so far-fetched while we're stuck on determining physical laws.

None of it has been scientifically proven and yes I have ran scientific studies myself.

This is why we argue, spend 30 years on a natal chart, why we ask, why we wonder why this person died and that person didn't and come up with new conclusions etc.

Right now Bazi can neither be proven or disproven because there are no set yes this will produce results rules, everyone is arguing, even the five element theory is not always accurate and everything is subjective. If you say your dad is more inolved in your life because he has significant cai elements and he denies, and is like no, well that has happened to me before (I believe), basically it's so hard to quantify. Not all Astrologers agree on everything and it is a very hazy thing, so hazy that you can draw almost any conclusion to fit any set of circumstances.

There are so many rules and new theories that can give an explanation for any situation, which makes Bazi true in any circumstance and thus can't be proven wrong or right.

That's why it's not a science.

Have you heard of the five-element reversal theory? In this theory when an elemtn is too strong is acts like the element that destroys it and must be treated as such.

How complicated is that? It's five elements for god's sake.

People even still debate strong or weak, follow or not, which god to use, in any case there is always someone supporting whatever side even the most far fetched one.

And when the real life result comes you just pick the one that explains it because there was always someone supporting the most far-fetched side and thus you can always prove Bazi was right.

Hey wait a minute he's famous but lack destroyer element.

Well he has a silent push (that's so out there).

ohh....


Hey this person has so many destroyer elements but isn't famous.

Well it's because he's too weak to handle it.....

oh.... but he has many roots

well it's because they are combined away

into the element that destroys him

well the combo is not valid because another one overrides it

no that combo overrides it

(and then they get into a whole argument about what overrides what etc. seriously though where do people get hierarchies, Vincent Koh must have made his up because all the classics say is that combos override clashes, and not which combos override which or if both happen at the same or both not at all, or if which combo overrides which)

Anyways whatever I said was scientifically and logically correct.

good night, hands are tired.

Yeah I know all that, but the god sat down one day can technically be true. And that's my whole point.

I'm pretty sure they didn't do math with percentages, intentionally leaving over 0.1% . First of all they never divided it into 1/3s anyways. And the reason 0.1% is left over is not because they intentionally left it like that it's because 33.3% is not an accurate representation of 1/3 which is why people keep bitching over this problem of.

Well if you divided 1 into 3 and get 33.3 repeating and add it together you get 9.9 repeating but that's not 10, so what is it. Well it's because 3.3 repeating is not 1/3 in the first place. It is impossible to represent 1/3 like that, first of all because it's repeating and even though it's repeating doesn't mean it will ever reach 1/4 or 1/3 .

Besides no one has ever scientifically proven the trinity of luck into 1/3s and if you are going to say yes someone has then that's just plain stupid

What god are you talking about here? Don't be hypothetical but be factual.

Fyi - it's simple math 100 divide by 3 equals to? 33.3%. And sorry to disappoint you but we Chinese see it that way in the context of a trinity where the Qi of luck flows Heaven-Man-Earth. Respect it for its own sense of worth. So this is not science, it's MATH plus who would need to SAY this? It's common sense, blah.

Right now Bazi can neither be proven or disproven because there are no set yes this will produce results rules, everyone is arguing, even the five element theory is not always accurate and everything is subjective. If you say your dad is more inolved in your life because he has significant cai elements and he denies, and is like no, well that has happened to me before (I believe), basically it's so hard to quantify. Not all Astrologers agree on everything and it is a very hazy thing, so hazy that you can draw almost any conclusion to fit any set of circumstances.

There are so many rules and new theories that can give an explanation for any situation, which makes Bazi true in any circumstance and thus can't be proven wrong or right.

That's why it's not a science.

Have you heard of the five-element reversal theory? In this theory when an elemtn is too strong is acts like the element that destroys it and must be treated as such.

How complicated is that? It's five elements for god's sake.

Bazi IS PROVEN. People argue because they find an itch to scratch, they feel comfortable doing so, get tempted and go for more. Simple. You are right to say that not all astrologers agree on everything but that does not include FUNDAMENTALS.

1 + 1= 2. Who would dispute that? Just as it is that a shi chen is 2 hours.

There can NEVER be anymore new rules or regulations because Master Xu Zi Ping has passed on, so if there are any new regulations or theories then it should and will not be recognise. Such is the relevance that we learn from history, we certainly don't change it.

Bazi IS science. (Just like maths is science)

I certainly have been in touch with the five-element reversal theory. Nothing too revolutionary about it, blah. It's still within the context of the 5 elements (they're not saying there are now 20 elements), just a distinctive version of flow of Qi. But is it relevant in Bazi? Umm...not applicable. I've said already, focus on Bazi.

As I've accentuated in an earlier reply to meek, this is a laissez faire world, you can interpret things in whichever way you like. Your choice. But fundamentals will NEVER change and it's for you to be disciplined in recognising that.

More so if you want to embrace a practice in another culture.

Thanks. 

[Scorpiez]

Hi again Moonchin.

This is getting to be quite a heated debate.

Having been an academician and a former university professor in the field of applied sciences, I can say that when numbers are involved, as in the case of calculating a natal chart, one should NOT go by what OTHERS say.

This is called the anecdotical method and it is shun in scientific studies.

What I recommed is case studies.  One should do lots of charts comparing the so called late rat theory with the Zi hour.  Once one has done about 100 of these charts and compare them with the life of people you are reading, one can say something coherent about it. 

Instead of saying, what other people say, it is more accurate to say, according to my case study of 100 cohorts, I can say that...

Based on that principle, I can say that the NEW DAY starts at 11:00 pm.

Now, people brought up in the Western way, has something called "confounding element" which distorts a bit my statement.  This confounding element is that those who do the charts FEEL WEIRD to think that a day will start at 11:00 pm.  There is a inherent biased build in during interpretation. 

'nough said.

Manty

Dear Fellow Threaders,
                               Please take heed of Master/Prof manty explanation here. This motion feels to be increasingly a pitfall for many of you.

                               Could I also kindly request for valued individuals born within or who have been in touch with the Rat hour to bring up your cases?

                               Thank you!

SM

P.S: Master/Prof manty, it's indeed great to have your presence and experience on this thread. Please continue to guide us! Thank you. 

[jerrylew]

I think the ancient masters knew,what it was actually represented by the tian gan and the di zhi of the bazi.    Maybe Prof Manty , Scorpio M and others would tell us the answer.  By searching to solve the problem from its root, we would hope to find the concrete and undisputable answer to the problem.


           Regards

             Jerry

[Scorpiez]

Hello Jerry!
               First of all, thank you for the attention rendered on this thread but sincere apologies if all the prior 'tug-of-war' over irrelevant concepts on chinese metaphysics had confused you. Prior contributors had indeed derail (myself as well!) from this motion and I seek your understanding in ignoring posts not relevant to the rat hour.

               The root to the problem has already been reinforced by Prof/Master manty and me earlier, which is that the start of a New day that should rightfully be applied to Bazi charts, is the Rat Hour that runs from 23:00hrs of a day to 00:59hrs of the next. I assume you know that each Shi Chen lasts for 2 hours? With that in mind, the matter of the fact is that distortion of this Shi Chen into 晚子时 and 早子时 - as apparent with numerous Bazi practitioners - errs fundamentally and should be ignored. This practice is Not Acceptable from any angle of consideration as it fragments the Rat Shi Chen into half! ie one in the morning (早子:0000hrs - 1259hrs) and evening (晚子:23:00hrs - 2359hrs) of the same day. It also bids you well to reinforce that the day begins with the Rat hour and ends with the Pig hour - just carry this notion.

               Reason(s) for this distortion had also been proposed by me and reinforced by the very experienced Prof/Master manty earlier. That is becasue of adapting Bazi to Western standards, where a day strikes at 0000hrs but vehemently inaccurate from conventional fundamentals. Conclusively and authoritatively (Based on mainland practice),

              Change your Day pillar to the following Day's if you're born within first half of the Rat Hour, 23:00hrs to 01:00hrs.[/b]


                This is ensures best accuracy and lies in tune with Bazi conventions. Simple as that. 

Sincerely,
scorpio.m

[Scorpiez]

Dear Valued Threaders - readers + contributors,
                                                                It has come to my attention that this thread has been embedded with too many miscellaneous posts irrelevant to the intended motion of the Rat Hour in focus. I hope for you all the be clear and not confused after going through this thread but it has unfortunately (not for the sake of debate but that more so that it has intricated the focus) been filled with irrelevant posts on metaphysics conceptual debates.

                                                               That's not what I want. As such, I'm planning to start a new thread whlist copying relevant posts from Prof/Master manty, moochin and myself (primarily) to facilitate focus. But because this is to cater for your needs, let me know if you'ld welcome this.  And Prof/Master manty + moochin, I really value both of your experiences and assistance to help us through the process (perhaps you both could be continue helping by playing the role similar to in-house consultants? Please.  ). Give me your opinions and guidance about the shift too.

Thanks to all!

Sincerely,
Scorpio.m

[Cyril]

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[Scorpiez]

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Hi scorpio.matrix,

I use 11pm as start of new day.

http://www.fivearts.net/index.php/topic,1913.msg16894.html#msg16894

Dear Master quahbkc,
                             Please continue to offer your experience in assisting potential threaders who might be confused. Your expertise is much needed here - very often the voices of practitioners are needed to establish authority.

Thanks.

 

[learnerforlife]

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