True or Magnetic North

[fsa]

What are you measuring with your luopan? Directions? Magnetic fields? Qi? Something else?

Hi Boyler,

Since you don't like reading long posts, I will keep it short.

If you understand the meaning of the two characters Luopan 羅盤, then you would know a FS compass measures many things including direction and geomagnetic influence, and all the information are correlated back to yin and yang and wuxing through the trigrams so we can use them to assess the ji-xiong 吉凶 (potentials and tendencies) of a give situation according to the rules of different FS schools. When we do this the Chinese would say we are checking the Qi-Field 氣塲 in our environment.

Even the Chinese Baike says we use the compass to measure the magnetic field:

尽管风水学中没有提到“磁场”的概念，但是罗盘上各圈层之间所讲究的方向、方位、间隔的配合，却暗含了“磁场”的规律。
Even though the FS literature did not raised the issue of magnetic field, but the various rings in a Luopan pertaining to directions, locations and match of various relationships, invariably hidden in it the discipline a magnetic field.

http://baike.baidu.com/view/61036.htm [nofollow]

fsa

[fsa]

I appreciate it, but to be honest you can not be really open minded in that respect as you are practicing and teaching one method for many years now, so you have personal bias toward magnetic north theory, and many reasons to stand behind it or to stand for it.

Hi Boyler,

On the contrary, having studied and practiced Feng Shui for more than 30 years forced me to be open minded and flexible, because if I don't, then I cannot find the appropriate solutions for my clients and my students will be one-track minded. As I told you earlier, I went through this exercise with my students two days ago and work with both readings; it was a real on-sire practical and it was not possible for me to rig the results as it was done cold turkey. Having said that, I realize it is just one example and not meant to be a proof of any theory. 

People like you who only reads about Feng Shui will not understand many nuances and subtleties a Feng Shui practitioner goes through; and as a teacher, I have to constantly keep up with my knowledge and know-how, so I can have something new and worthwhile to teach my students, otherwise they won't keep coming back.

I often expressed my opinions strongly but I am not biased as you think I am, and I am aware that my Australian sense of humor can get me into trouble some of the time.

In this instance, I feel I have to defend myself against your accusation.

fsa

[fsa]

Either he/we should speak about magnetism/ci 磁, or about qi 气/氣/炁. The two are not the same. And if we can agree that fengshui deals with qi (at least the term is used in fengshui classics, while ci is not), then we must conclude it does not deal with ci.
Can you see it now?

No Boyler, I cannot see this. In Guopu's Zangshu, even a copper bell has qi and the chest nuts far away responded to it. The magnetic field of the earth moves a needle and pointed it to a constant direction, the soldiers used it to win battles, the sailers who lost at sea are saved by it and the Feng Shui experts use it to find Sheng Qi, so Master Qin's comment "地磁即是氣 (geomagnetism is same as qi)" do made sense to me.

Feng Shui deals with qi and this qi is not just one single thing, it is a synergy of Heaven, Earth and Human coming together to make Sheng Qi, qi that encourages growth and nourishes us ("To bury is to take advantage of the Sheng Qi" - first line in the Zangshu). In this sense, everything has qi and we cannot just separate magnetism/ci 磁 with qi 气/氣/炁.

It seems you have taken a very narrow definition of qi out of a dictionary and I have taken a much broader one out of the classic. Here lies our difference in approach to Feng Shui.

[fsa]

The man should make his mind. If magnetism is to be taken into consideration, then it doesn't matter is its source natural or artificial, especially if we know that we can create (artificially, of course) very strong sources of magnetism, much much stronger than natural ones are.

Hi Boyler,

It does matter, what the Luopan measure is natural geomagnetism and not artificial electromagnetism. It is 地磁塲 and not 电磁塲.

fsa

[boyler]

Hi fsa,

Since you don't like reading long posts, I will keep it short.

Thank you for your understanding. I appreciate it very much.

If you understand the meaning of the two characters Luopan 羅盤,

That's a good one You had a better punch if you used term Luojing 羅經 instead But in case you was serious, I had to tell you that I know the meaning Or perhaps you forgot who are you dealing with?

then you would know a FS compass measures many things including direction and geomagnetic influence, and all the information are correlated back to yin and yang and wuxing through the trigrams so we can use them to assess the ji-xiong 吉凶 (potentials and tendencies) of a give situation according to the rules of different FS schools. When we do this the Chinese would say we are checking the Qi-Field 氣塲 in our environment.

Hmm...sorry to have to tell you it was a kind of trick question, as Luopan as well as any other compass, strictly speaking, does not measure anything, it is just a device which help us to relatively quickly determine a direction/orientation.

I would like to hear/see an attempt of measuring geomagnetic influence, and am eager to know which ring on a luopan measures it.

About qi we obviously did not came to an agreement

Even the Chinese Baike says we use the compass to measure the magnetic field:

尽管风水学中没有提到“磁场”的概念，但是罗盘上各圈层之间所讲究的方向、方位、间隔的配合，却暗含了“磁场”的规律。
Even though the FS literature did not raised the issue of magnetic field, but the various rings in a Luopan pertaining to directions, locations and match of various relationships, invariably hidden in it the discipline a
magnetic field.

You had not to quote this for such a kind of information, just politely ask a forum member to say it for you, as I suppose some 99,9 % of forum members and fengshui practitioners will agree with you about it. Unfortunately, this does not necessarily proves you are right

Well, again, to cut that [c~!@#$%^&*_+?], and try to put it simple English in above quoted source it is said:

"Despite the fact that the fengshui literature does not mention magnetic field, the fengshui is in fact based on it" (!!!)  

"The main proof that fengshui is based on magnetic field is the fact that there is no such a proof at all (!!!)"

I really don't know what to say to such kind of "proof". I mean, really. (???) 

Am I the only one here who see some(!) absurdity in the above statement? 

Anyway, the statement, besides it is strange and absurd as it may be, is also again false(!), because, as a matter of fact, fengshui literature raised the issue of magnetic field(!) at least as early as 13th century, which also points out how uninformed the author(s) of the statement was/were (!)

[boyler]

Hi fsa,

In this instance, I feel I have to defend myself against your accusation.

Sorry if you understood it as accusation. It was merely an observation, and such behavior is quite natural and justified. Besides, maybe you are not aware of it, but this post of yours just proved it, and it's perfectly normal reaction. No hard feelings trenched boy

[laphard]

[Hidden post: You need login to forum to see it.]

[devadog]

Gentlemen, I am finding this discussion very interesting.But what I find hard to "get" is the acadmic back and forth about what others have written, understood, or thought.
It is all at a meta-level....and why?

After centuries (perhaps even millenia) there ought to be ample experience to debate who was more accurate in practice.
In fact, centuries aside, you each have a year or two of your own experience    to refer to. What have you seen yourselves?

I am not dismissing the importance of precedent or the classics, but rather lamenting the avoidance of first hand reports from two people so able to provide them

[boyler]

Hi fsa,

No Boyler, I cannot see this. In Guopu's Zangshu, even a copper bell has qi and the chest nuts far away responded to it.

Could you explain what does above statement has to do with qi=magnetism? Copper does not have magnetic qualities (which is, BTW, one of numerous proofs that qi could not possibly be identified with magnetism). Even if it has (which, of course, has not), it's man-made thing, and according to prof. Cheng, whom you brought up as an authority,

we should take the magnetic deviations, that is the magna under the earth affecting the needle, into consideration, but not the electromagnetic influences generated by man-made things

I suppose I don't have to mention that "chest nuts" also do not have any magnetic quality, or I do?

By now, the thread becomes little bit ridiculous and senseless, and I am little bit tired of pointing out the obvious, as every schoolboy knows such things.

The magnetic field of the earth moves a needle

This I must agree, and it was never a subject of debate 

and pointed it to a constant direction,

This on the other hand is not correct. Earth magnetic poles are in constant movement, besides there are local magnetic fields and magnetic fields caused by man-made things, which render magnetic needle of a compass and therefore luopan too inaccurate. That is it also indicated deviations, declinations, and/or inclinations. In short, it's not pointed to a constant direction.

the soldiers used it to win battles, the sailers who lost at sea are saved by it and the Feng Shui experts use it to find Sheng Qi, so Master Qin's comment "地磁即是氣 (geomagnetism is same as qi)" do made sense to me.

I've used examples of soldiers, sailors, etc. to point out that each of them who is professionally using a compass of some kind, should made corrections for magnetic declination in order not to get lost, to arrive at right destination, or to determine true direction of some object - that is they are, although using compass, in fact looking for the true or geographic directions.

The same thing should do fengshui experts too, according to some fengshui classics, say, (surprise!!!), Book of Burials

Feng Shui deals with qi and this qi is not just one single thing,

Fengshui deals with qi and this qi is just one single thing, which could transform, sometimes visible, sometimes invisible. One can even hold it in the hand Ooooh, such a mysterious that one single thing is

it is a synergy of Heaven, Earth and Human coming together to make Sheng Qi, qi that encourages growth and nourishes us ("To bury is to take advantage of the Sheng Qi" - first line in the Zangshu).

What is the connection of burying with qi as magnetism?

In this sense, everything has qi

Not everything has qi.

and we cannot just separate magnetism/ci 磁 with qi 气/氣/炁.

Yes we can

It seems you have taken a very narrow definition of qi out of a dictionary and I have taken a much broader one out of the classic. Here lies our difference in approach to Feng Shui.

I have no definition of qi that is my own, and its not narrow nor only from a dictionary

On the other hand, excuse me if I missed it, but I did not see any definition you brought up from classics - statements from some professors and masters yes, but prof or definition no - which connects qi with any form of magnetism as yet.

To summarize what might look like one (but unfortunately isn't):

copper bell has qi
chest nuts far away responded to it
To bury is to take advantage of the Sheng Qi

This is all in this thread so far what could be considered as your quotations from classics - in this case from only one (unofficial but real) classic, and I can't see any reference to magnetism there, on the contrary as I have said above.

copper bell has qi - copper has no magnetic qualities
chest nuts far away responded to it - chest nuts have no magnetic qualities
To bury is to take advantage of the Sheng Qi - (referring to a corpses, or more specifically to bones - which) have no magnetic qualities

Now, from the above you say it is clear to you that we cannot just separate magnetism/ci 磁 with qi 气/氣/炁.

On the other hand I say that in above quotations I do not see any mention of qi which could be connected with magnetism whatsoever. Is there something, anything I missed out? What is it? Anyone?

With all my effort of imagination I must admit I can't understand your reasoning, but it must be only me 

I think the most reasonable explanation is that aliens hijacked my friend, who had a beautiful critical and analytical mind of an architect and scientist, who even promoted fengshui as a science, and turned him into one of newagers who see things where they are not. Or it was me who was hijacked?

BTW, I would still like to see quotations from classics which support Master Qin's argument. Maybe they will open my eyes.

[boyler]

Hi fsa,

It does matter, what the Luopan measure is natural geomagnetism and not artificial electromagnetism. It is 地磁塲 and not 电磁塲.

Two questions:
1. Do you really think artificial electromagnetism does not affect luopan or in that matter living organisms?

2. Which classic (where it is) said so? (As prof. Cheng does not sound as an authority on the subject to me, if he said what you said he said, if you know what I mean to say )

I think we didn't move an inch.

I brought out a definition of qi according to a dictionary, where there is no mention of magnetism as a potential translation of the term, so it would be fair if you brought one where it is mentioned. Can you do at least that much so we could move on little bit further? Please?

Or we can take it outside    I mean privately